psychological flexibility
Dani: Good morning. I'm Dani. I'm here with Tikva.
Tikva: Hi, I'm Tikva.
Dani: And I'm really excited to talk with you. Thank you for talking with me.
Tikva: Thanks for inviting me. I love it. I'm so excited to be here.
Dani: So we're just making some art and talking about creative wellness. And I'm curious, Tikva, what does “creative wellness mean” to you?
Tikva: I thought about this question so much when you asked it originally. Full disclosure, I got these questions in advance, and I've been thinking about them immensely, and this one in particular hung me up. I got hung up on it because creative wellness is integrated into so much of our other aspects of wellness and how we relate to each other and ourselves and the world, etc.
But I came back to this idea that creative wellness, to me, is really just intentionally stepping into a creative practice and integrating it into your life, ongoingly. Maybe not linearly or 100% consistently, but really making an intentional step into creativity. Does that make sense?
Dani: That makes so much sense. I love that.
Tikva: You're just like, "Yes, I'm gonna do this thing. I'm choosing to do it. Let's go."
Dani: Yes, like valuing integrating creative practice into your life.
Tikva: Yes. Whether that's doodling on the sides of, in the margins of paper intentionally, “I know that this helps my ADHD when I'm trying to listen to other people." Or sculpting, or like really embodying a character in any given moment when we're socially performing in some way. I just feel like the creative piece must be tied with at least a conscious choice or recognition at some point maybe. I could redact that, though.
Dani: No, that makes sense to me. It's like orienting toward creativity in how we are in the world.
Tikva: Yes. Okay, I'm about to talk a lot. I can feel it.
Dani: Please. Please. Get in there.
Tikva: Okay, here we go. I feel like creativity is a fundamental value of the world, whether we recognize it or not. We are by nature created and creative beings. We have been created by our parents, by the powers that be, and go out into the world and make all these systems, and relationships, and pieces of art, and all these different things. And yet creativity itself as a value, I don't see it getting its place in the conversation or the living of life to the degree that, A, it really can, and B, that we are fundamentally creative.
And so I value bringing creativity into the day-to-day or at least into our concept of what it is to be alive as a tool to human. That was good.
Dani: That was really good. And I feel like what you're pointing to is about how in our culture we set aside creativity, it's for the artists or for this or for that, or for kids, or whatever.
Tikva: For kids...
Dani: And that it's actually part of being human.
Tikva: There's no escaping it. There's no escaping making a meal, or choosing an outfit. It's just a question of how you wanna do that, and how you wanna pull people into that process, or how you wanna share that with other people, but we're always making things. I feel like even when you mention kids, I'm remembering when I was in third grade or whatever, and really working on my handwriting. Not everyone cares about their handwriting. I think a lot of people do in third grade. But there was this really conscious choosing of, “Do I wanna do bubble letters, and am I gonna go more scrawly? Like, how is this going to play out?”
And that's also creativity. We don't lose it. I really don't think we lose it. People say that "We grow up and we lose it." I think we lose touch with it to the degree that we have when we're younger, but even signing off on emails, people are like, "Should I write ‘warmth’ or ‘cheers’?" What a choice. What are you gonna... ? Get creative. It could be anything.
Dani: I love that example of one word choice gets to be creative.
Tikva: Yes, let's make it simple. And those like sound bites and tiny bites of creativity probably are what's needed when we're rehabbing it as adults. Just the conscious attention for the tiny choices.
Dani: I love that phrase that I heard you say about “rehabbing creativity.” And I'm curious what that's been like for you? What is your creative wellness practice like?
Tikva: I am thinking about that question. Let me feel into it. I know for myself, I am in a current practice of rehabbing my attention, my creative attention, and that looks like working on really small pieces of paper at home, and just whipping out a cute little like, “woof, I'm just gonna wiggle my hand around for a second and see what happens, and how does it feel, and where does it bring me? And okay, I'm done. That was 30 seconds of lusciousness.” To have a manageable practice, if it's even called a practice. It's just something that I'm tending to. But I think the idea of rehabbing attention and bringing back to life, like reworking the muscle of creativity really is a conscious choice, and is really hard to do in this world. In this wild wild world….
Dani: That's really helpful for me to hear, because I get stuck in feeling like if I don't have hours to get into my writing project then I should just not even do it. And the little pieces of it are so valuable, actually.
Tikva: That's what has kept me from really having a creative practice for a couple of years, is just the idea of “It has to be big, and I'm gonna go hard, and it's gonna be gorgeous, and people are gonna swoon, and I'm gonna be so proud of myself.” But I get really proud of myself for even doing one thing, reading one page of a book, or creating a small thing. I don't think that excludes making big projects and having really meaningful pieces of art or moments of creativity. And it shouldn't, especially if that's something that we care about as individuals. I have really big pieces that I work on that I love so much, and they're of my mother and my family, and I'm just “Mmmm, love it."
But/and also, it's not always that. And cultivating attention seems like one of the bigger drivers of creativity, of being able to make a big piece of art, and that happens in small moments for me.
Dani: That's beautiful.
Tikva: Final answer.
Dani: Cultivating attention in small and big moments.
Tikva: Yes. What do you think about it? How do you do that?
Dani: I love that. I'm really into what you're saying about how we can't avoid it. Everything we do can be creative. Like making a meal or just like how we approach problems. I've been thinking about it, and I know we're gonna talk about creativity and hard times, but I've been thinking about it like you're saying, attention and also like a mindset. Like opening and seeing what can emerge.
Tikva: Yes. I was thinking about the term “psychological flexibility” in relationship to creativity and how that is openness, how if we give ourselves permission to be flexible, that's kind of the birthplace of being like, "Ooh, what could this be? Or what is it now? What will it be?"
That and especially in relationship to, hard times when minds and bodies and thoughts and spirits can get rigid or scared or whatever. The flexibility of thought feels important and lovely, and sweet, challenging, and good.
Dani: Wait, say that phrase again.
Tikva: Psychological flexibility. Like, "Ooh, maybe I'm wrong," that would be a psychologically flexible moment. Or, "Man, that cat looks like a squirrel." Also psychologically flexible. That counts.
Dani: That's so cool. This makes me wanna ask about how you're in school to be a therapist. And you're in finals. I'm wondering what you're learning or thinking about related to creativity in your therapy training.
Tikva: Oh my gosh. It's finals week.
Dani: There's probably so much in your brain.
Tikva: There's so much in my brain right now. I feel like it's just like I'm picking up chunks of it and just putting it back into that ear hole. Rehab the brain. Being a weirdo. We are learning about... I'm just completing a group therapy class, and I have brought a lot of expressive arts interventions into my practice of group therapy during the semester. And something that I researched just recently was that art, tools of art, like art-based tools in a group practice help create group cohesiveness.
Which is somewhat obvious if you've ever been in a room with people making art, and there's kind of a quietness or a softness to it, and a connection to it, but everyone's still in their own worlds. And it's this practice that lives in the liminal space of connectivity. And there's actually research that says that is a benefit to helping people feel in tune with each other, and that's something that I feel relieved about. Not even surprised about, but relieved that we've got some data points to be like “Steven over here said bloop, bloppy, blop, that it's true." And that it can be raised and elevated to the point of being like “Art matters.”
Also, I got out of an expressive arts and counseling class, and this is the nerd in me that just loves learning about different things, but different art practices evoke and respond to different mental health issues. I think any disciplined practicing artist knows this experientially as well, that clay can be soothing and is really good for grounding and kinesthetic work and getting yourself into the present moment; painting is expressive and gives expression to things that might not otherwise have language or it's too hard to speak to something in words; and writing, if you're needing to rewrite your narrative, your personal story, or what a memory might contain, what wisdom it might contain, or what pain, writing can be a place to go to really uncover that.
That's so cool that we have all these tools, and it's accessible for the most part, especially at Conspire Studio.
Dani: Thank you.
Tikva: Truly. Truly, we're in a room full of stuff, which is awesome, and I love it so much. But yeah, that's something that I'm learning.
There was one person in class, I feel like I'm just rambling now, who was really blown away by the fact that art can be such a tool, and that blew me away, where I was like, "I forget we don't all like default to this." And that's wonderful.
Dani: Yes. Yes.
Tikva: Am I overloading you right now?
Dani: No, this is amazing. I'm having so much fun. I love it. I love it. I could talk about it forever. I wanna hear more. I'm really curious about the part that I heard you say about how making art in a group can create a collective cohesive experience. What does making art in a group do?
Tikva: That wouldn't otherwise be had, like one-on-one?
Dani: Yes, because there's benefits to both making art alone and making art together.
Tikva: Yes. I think for me, the benefit of making art alone is I think personally greater freedom in being weird, and just really letting it go, and turning into whatever wild animal I need to be in any moment to get my piece of art through me, to let it flow.
But being in a group, the group cohesiveness… that’s what reminds us that it's okay to be human together, and there's a soul-strengthening element to group cohesion. There's safety. If I'm making art alone, I might become unhinged, and that's a risk that I'm willing to take. That's a risk I knowingly step into. I love that. It's great. But in a group, there's accountability, and safety, and like a rootedness that also allows for deeper expression.
The group cohesiveness piece specifically is a fundamental factor in whether group therapy is successful or not for the people who are in it. So to have something like “Art-making matters to the success of people being comfortable,” and maybe not even comfortable, but being safe and connected to each other- and I think that's fascinating, too, that there's like a true welcoming of multiplicity, some would say. I'm trying to think what else. That's what stands out to me about the cohesive part of group work.
It's also just nice. It's nice to just vibe.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: It's nice to vibe with people. And feel other people in a room with you, even if you don't know them, to just feel what it is to be a human in another room with other humans. There's not pressure to live up to what someone else is working on, but there is the felt experience of being an animal together in a room with other wild ones.
Dani: I love that. I resonate with all of that. I feel like making art with other people is such a special and unique experience of coexisting in a creative way. I usually feel inspired by looking around and seeing what other people are making and being like, "Oh, that's so weird. I love that." Or "I would've never expected that from you.”
Tikva: It's wonderful.
Dani: And it's very vulnerable, it feels so human, it feels so raw, and it's so fun.
Tikva: And it's like an opportunity to see what… I love that you just said, "I never would've expected that from you," because we do that, we're like, "Ooh, what kind of art does this person make? What is this person's vibe?" And it just feels like a kind of mind-blowing thing to see what people actually produce and what lives inside of us that we walk around with every day. We all have all of our multiplicity (another time to say that word) of worlds inside of us, and then art is that in our best human attempt to manifest it, in our best attempt to be like, "Ooh, this little weird box lives inside of me. Here, I'll show it to you." It's always surprising.
Dani: Yes. It is such an insight and connection point into other people's inner worlds. And I love having experiences where there's group art-making and maybe some people return again, and then you can do it again, and again. And like the practice of seeing how people evolve their art and what comes through on different days, that's really fun and weird.
Tikva: It's so fun and weird. Oh my gosh. And frustrating sometimes, and wonderful, and that's like the practice piece of it, is to see how people evolve and where we get stuck and how we keep going.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: Totally.
Dani: Ooh, I love this. So you're gonna be leading a session on creativity through hard times. Yes. And I'd love to hear more about creativity through hard times. What and why?
Tikva: It's so needed. The why is that we're having hard times collectively.
Dani: Yes, we are.
Tikva: We're out here having hard times together, and good times and fun times, but, and also challenging ones. And we were talking about this earlier, the ways that we constrict when financial stress happens, when relational stress happens, global environmental stress, and that constriction sometimes is necessary to focus to get one foot in front of the other. But it doesn't happen and then the rest of the world just collapses. There is still a flow and a fluidity somewhere out there, within, all the things. And that, I think, is where attention comes into play and really intentionally turning our attentions to creative making, at least in fits and spurts, at least in moments where we can, enough to remember that there is creativity within and without these tense moments.
And I believe that, creativity is not just an aesthetic practice, but it can be a spiritual practice, a political act, but also as a problem-solving tool. Creative thinking is a problem-solving tool, and Albert Einstein, that dude, we love him. Shout out Albie. I think he's quoted about this a squajillion times over, where he's like, "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Imagination encircles the world." And it's true that that exists alongside all of these collapsing systems and hard moments and challenges, and it's a tool we can lean on, and I think we should.
I truly would love to see more creative thought and conversation that's okay without having an outcome. Creative conversation that's for the sake of exploring or following curiosity or having an outcome, whatever, but just the movement towards more psychological flexibility in relating to each other. As a tool.
And anyway, long story short, this little workshop is just one little tiny moment to try to cultivate that flexible attention. And I think it's important because we just don't have a lot of spaces to do that. A lot of safe spaces and a lot of spaces with materials provided, and spaces where it's okay to have an emotional moment, but, and also you can keep going. All these different aspects of safety are present, so that's a gift. I love it. I'm so excited.
Dani: I'm so excited too. I agree that this is so needed. It is at the heart of what we need most individually and collectively.
Tikva: Yes. Truly. What do you think? You say something 'cause I'm curious about your thoughts around why we need it too. I think it's so fundamental, right?
Dani: Yes. I agree with everything you said about psychological flexibility and the way that creativity helps us solve problems and move forward in a way that we might not otherwise even know is possible.
Tikva: Yes. Things open up, just by virtue of looking at something in a new way. Or taking a step back and going, "Ah. Oh, okay. It's not just this one thing. I can approach this from different angles."
Dani: And I love what you were saying about cultivating our attention, because that's something that we do in creative practice, is put our attention on what we're making with our hands, like our body, the colors, the textures, the shapes the materials, and how that's a different way of being than, for me, when I'm making art, maybe I'm still stressed and anxious or whatever, but I'm also like moving it.
Tikva: Yes, totally. There's the relationship with anxiety or whatever, with whatever you're feeling versus, and it's moving through you, and it's like part of the process rather than just being held onto like a dog leash, like something that's running away from you really fast, and you're like, "Oh, no. How do I catch this?" You can walk with it.
Dani: It feels like a mindfulness practice. Instead of getting caught in the spirals of worry and stress and shame, etc, then it's like I'm actually moving my attention to let it move outward and turn into something else. Not that those are bad things, but that they can have a direction, a transformative direction, as opposed to being stuck in a spiral.
Tikva: They're never fixed. Our experiences aren't fixed, and so to move it allows it space to breathe and be seen. And then you can actually look at what's in front of you, and you might not love it. You might absolutely adore what you've created. Or you might not think twice about it and then walk out the door and suddenly see things in a just slightly different way that changes your mood entirely. I think that's the cultivating of attention is that our intentionality is subtle but so impactful. It shapes our lives. So if we consciously spend time cultivating our attention, then we become aware of that tool that we have in and of itself. And it's a creative tool. That you get some sort of choice over it.
Dani: And what you said about letting your piece help you to see something else. I think that for me, part of what I love about the creative practice is that I can externalize something and then have it reflected back to me in a totally new way that I'm like, "Oh- there's this too or there's that," or "I love this color and now I'm remembering it reminds me of this other thing that's also this color and I love this color,"
Tikva: And those neural connections get bigger and the space of your mind gets bigger. That creates more spaciousness, and memory and connection and points to potentially talk with your neighbor about. "Hey, cerulean blue, what's up?"
I'm looking at this piece that's in front of me right now, with this black background and this weird orange squiggle. I was really not liking it at first. And I had to keep going 'cause I knew that if I just kept going, there would be some sort of moment of change or shift in some sort of direction. And I've started squiggling on it, and it looks like this like 1980s pop modern color blast situation right now. But, and also the part that I did not like about it in the beginning is now this beautiful background to the weird that is happening now. And that's an attentional shift too. That's like creating space to look back on a thing and go, "Oh yeah, it was this once and now it's this."
Which might be a heady or convoluted way of just saying I've just scribbled like a five-year-old for 15 minutes. But it's still something to kinda study, like an externalized way of looking at how our minds move and how our hearts move and I like it.
Dani: Yes. Thank you. I love that. It's making me think of creativity through hard times, about how like in my experience, almost every time I make art there are things about it I don't like. And that resistance and that not liking something, but then continuing anyway and letting it transform. Maybe there's a moment of fun or play, perhaps.
Tikva: Totally.
Dani: That's like us living in hard times.
Tikva: 100%.
Dani: That it's like maybe I don't like this, but like what else, where can I find other things?
Tikva: And how I keep going. It's practice for keeping going, 'cause the not liking thing is real. Even with a piece of art, there's a real emotional response when I don't like a piece of art. There's a real part of me that's like, "Fuck this. I'm done." But it's just art.
Dani: Yes. Yes.
Tikva: It's just like this little moment, and it's good practice. Yes. I like that. For when we're presented with something in the real world that is challenging and we can remember that there are gonna be other ways to look at it ultimately.
Dani: But don't erase the challenge. It's still there.
Tikva: Yes. Yeah, that the challenge exists. And that's part of the, the creativity is igniting curiosity enough to try to look at it in a different way or have some sort of flexibility in moving with it or through it or whatever. I think there's, especially in art, this idea that it's not challenging, that artists just make art and it's super easy and it doesn't take hours of mental experiences. But it's not. Art making is an emotional process, and so is living. It is a direct reflection of how we live and the ways that we caretake ourselves when at least when I'm working on a piece of art, the things that I'm thinking, those are all directly translatable into how I deal with challenges in my own life. And it's not always pretty, and it's also, it's a tool, it's a curiosity point.
My hope is that if as we collectively cultivate attention, that we create flexibility within ourselves and relationally with each other, and can build that muscle together over time. It feels like the antidote to AI. It feels like the antidote to economic collapse. It does not feel like the savior, but it feels like this tool that we can hold onto while things get more and more precarious around us.
And, creative thought is nonlinear, and while we're in this world where we don't know what's gonna happen next often, nonlinear thinking is a gift. That is a resource and a resilience-building skill to practice. And so in that way, creativity is, not just producing a thing, but it's a process we can keep stepping into, and that's why I like it for hard times 'cause there's so many levels that it hits.
And you're in a room with other people making things, which is, like we talked about earlier, a safety net and a delight. Co-regulation. All the good stuff.
Dani: Yes. That's so good. Is there anything else that we didn't get to talk about that is on your mind, sparked from this conversation?
Tikva: I just love talking about this stuff. Thanks for giving me so much room to just rant and ramble. It's so fun. I'm like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I love it. I love it. I love it.
Dani: I love everything you're saying.
Tikva: It's awesome. This space is awesome. Conspire Studio is awesome. I think y'all had a y'all had a series around humaning and creativity, like attuning to the human. And that intersection, I think that's just the main thing that feels real to me, is that creative practice, imagination, silliness in dark moments , these are all fundamental aspects of being a human, and they aren't superficial. It's not a superficial practice. It's... It can help break apart heaviness, and it can also be super he- like creativity can feel heavy. But it's such a bridge. Between our inner world, our outer world, our relationships. I really I'm like, I wanna flip over the table. This is what I believe. Yes. This is what I believe. Everyone, gather around.
Dani: I believe it too.
Tikva: Yeah. It's our humanity. It's just part of what it is to have a body, is to be a creative being. And so I'm excited to consciously use it.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: Thanks for talking. Thanks for listening.
Dani: Thank you so much. Yeah. This has been amazing and I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
Tikva: Absolutely. Well, I'll see you at the workshop. See you there, everybody.
Dani: Good morning. I'm Dani. I'm here with Tikva.
Tikva: Hi, I'm Tikva.
Dani: And I'm really excited to talk with you. Thank you for talking with me.
Tikva: Thanks for inviting me. I love it. I'm so excited to be here.
Dani: So we're just making some art and talking about creative wellness. And I'm curious, Tikva, what does “creative wellness mean” to you?
Tikva: I thought about this question so much when you asked it originally. Full disclosure, I got these questions in advance, and I've been thinking about them immensely, and this one in particular hung me up. I got hung up on it because creative wellness is integrated into so much of our other aspects of wellness and how we relate to each other and ourselves and the world, etc.
But I came back to this idea that creative wellness, to me, is really just intentionally stepping into a creative practice and integrating it into your life, ongoingly. Maybe not linearly or 100% consistently, but really making an intentional step into creativity. Does that make sense?
Dani: That makes so much sense. I love that.
Tikva: You're just like, "Yes, I'm gonna do this thing. I'm choosing to do it. Let's go."
Dani: Yes, like valuing integrating creative practice into your life.
Tikva: Yes. Whether that's doodling on the sides of, in the margins of paper intentionally, “I know that this helps my ADHD when I'm trying to listen to other people." Or sculpting, or like really embodying a character in any given moment when we're socially performing in some way. I just feel like the creative piece must be tied with at least a conscious choice or recognition at some point maybe. I could redact that, though.
Dani: No, that makes sense to me. It's like orienting toward creativity in how we are in the world.
Tikva: Yes. Okay, I'm about to talk a lot. I can feel it.
Dani: Please. Please. Get in there.
Tikva: Okay, here we go. I feel like creativity is a fundamental value of the world, whether we recognize it or not. We are by nature created and creative beings. We have been created by our parents, by the powers that be, and go out into the world and make all these systems, and relationships, and pieces of art, and all these different things. And yet creativity itself as a value, I don't see it getting its place in the conversation or the living of life to the degree that, A, it really can, and B, that we are fundamentally creative.
And so I value bringing creativity into the day-to-day or at least into our concept of what it is to be alive as a tool to human. That was good.
Dani: That was really good. And I feel like what you're pointing to is about how in our culture we set aside creativity, it's for the artists or for this or for that, or for kids, or whatever.
Tikva: For kids...
Dani: And that it's actually part of being human.
Tikva: There's no escaping it. There's no escaping making a meal, or choosing an outfit. It's just a question of how you wanna do that, and how you wanna pull people into that process, or how you wanna share that with other people, but we're always making things. I feel like even when you mention kids, I'm remembering when I was in third grade or whatever, and really working on my handwriting. Not everyone cares about their handwriting. I think a lot of people do in third grade. But there was this really conscious choosing of, “Do I wanna do bubble letters, and am I gonna go more scrawly? Like, how is this going to play out?”
And that's also creativity. We don't lose it. I really don't think we lose it. People say that "We grow up and we lose it." I think we lose touch with it to the degree that we have when we're younger, but even signing off on emails, people are like, "Should I write ‘warmth’ or ‘cheers’?" What a choice. What are you gonna... ? Get creative. It could be anything.
Dani: I love that example of one word choice gets to be creative.
Tikva: Yes, let's make it simple. And those like sound bites and tiny bites of creativity probably are what's needed when we're rehabbing it as adults. Just the conscious attention for the tiny choices.
Dani: I love that phrase that I heard you say about “rehabbing creativity.” And I'm curious what that's been like for you? What is your creative wellness practice like?
Tikva: I am thinking about that question. Let me feel into it. I know for myself, I am in a current practice of rehabbing my attention, my creative attention, and that looks like working on really small pieces of paper at home, and just whipping out a cute little like, “woof, I'm just gonna wiggle my hand around for a second and see what happens, and how does it feel, and where does it bring me? And okay, I'm done. That was 30 seconds of lusciousness.” To have a manageable practice, if it's even called a practice. It's just something that I'm tending to. But I think the idea of rehabbing attention and bringing back to life, like reworking the muscle of creativity really is a conscious choice, and is really hard to do in this world. In this wild wild world….
Dani: That's really helpful for me to hear, because I get stuck in feeling like if I don't have hours to get into my writing project then I should just not even do it. And the little pieces of it are so valuable, actually.
Tikva: That's what has kept me from really having a creative practice for a couple of years, is just the idea of “It has to be big, and I'm gonna go hard, and it's gonna be gorgeous, and people are gonna swoon, and I'm gonna be so proud of myself.” But I get really proud of myself for even doing one thing, reading one page of a book, or creating a small thing. I don't think that excludes making big projects and having really meaningful pieces of art or moments of creativity. And it shouldn't, especially if that's something that we care about as individuals. I have really big pieces that I work on that I love so much, and they're of my mother and my family, and I'm just “Mmmm, love it."
But/and also, it's not always that. And cultivating attention seems like one of the bigger drivers of creativity, of being able to make a big piece of art, and that happens in small moments for me.
Dani: That's beautiful.
Tikva: Final answer.
Dani: Cultivating attention in small and big moments.
Tikva: Yes. What do you think about it? How do you do that?
Dani: I love that. I'm really into what you're saying about how we can't avoid it. Everything we do can be creative. Like making a meal or just like how we approach problems. I've been thinking about it, and I know we're gonna talk about creativity and hard times, but I've been thinking about it like you're saying, attention and also like a mindset. Like opening and seeing what can emerge.
Tikva: Yes. I was thinking about the term “psychological flexibility” in relationship to creativity and how that is openness, how if we give ourselves permission to be flexible, that's kind of the birthplace of being like, "Ooh, what could this be? Or what is it now? What will it be?"
That and especially in relationship to, hard times when minds and bodies and thoughts and spirits can get rigid or scared or whatever. The flexibility of thought feels important and lovely, and sweet, challenging, and good.
Dani: Wait, say that phrase again.
Tikva: Psychological flexibility. Like, "Ooh, maybe I'm wrong," that would be a psychologically flexible moment. Or, "Man, that cat looks like a squirrel." Also psychologically flexible. That counts.
Dani: That's so cool. This makes me wanna ask about how you're in school to be a therapist. And you're in finals. I'm wondering what you're learning or thinking about related to creativity in your therapy training.
Tikva: Oh my gosh. It's finals week.
Dani: There's probably so much in your brain.
Tikva: There's so much in my brain right now. I feel like it's just like I'm picking up chunks of it and just putting it back into that ear hole. Rehab the brain. Being a weirdo. We are learning about... I'm just completing a group therapy class, and I have brought a lot of expressive arts interventions into my practice of group therapy during the semester. And something that I researched just recently was that art, tools of art, like art-based tools in a group practice help create group cohesiveness.
Which is somewhat obvious if you've ever been in a room with people making art, and there's kind of a quietness or a softness to it, and a connection to it, but everyone's still in their own worlds. And it's this practice that lives in the liminal space of connectivity. And there's actually research that says that is a benefit to helping people feel in tune with each other, and that's something that I feel relieved about. Not even surprised about, but relieved that we've got some data points to be like “Steven over here said bloop, bloppy, blop, that it's true." And that it can be raised and elevated to the point of being like “Art matters.”
Also, I got out of an expressive arts and counseling class, and this is the nerd in me that just loves learning about different things, but different art practices evoke and respond to different mental health issues. I think any disciplined practicing artist knows this experientially as well, that clay can be soothing and is really good for grounding and kinesthetic work and getting yourself into the present moment; painting is expressive and gives expression to things that might not otherwise have language or it's too hard to speak to something in words; and writing, if you're needing to rewrite your narrative, your personal story, or what a memory might contain, what wisdom it might contain, or what pain, writing can be a place to go to really uncover that.
That's so cool that we have all these tools, and it's accessible for the most part, especially at Conspire Studio.
Dani: Thank you.
Tikva: Truly. Truly, we're in a room full of stuff, which is awesome, and I love it so much. But yeah, that's something that I'm learning.
There was one person in class, I feel like I'm just rambling now, who was really blown away by the fact that art can be such a tool, and that blew me away, where I was like, "I forget we don't all like default to this." And that's wonderful.
Dani: Yes. Yes.
Tikva: Am I overloading you right now?
Dani: No, this is amazing. I'm having so much fun. I love it. I love it. I could talk about it forever. I wanna hear more. I'm really curious about the part that I heard you say about how making art in a group can create a collective cohesive experience. What does making art in a group do?
Tikva: That wouldn't otherwise be had, like one-on-one?
Dani: Yes, because there's benefits to both making art alone and making art together.
Tikva: Yes. I think for me, the benefit of making art alone is I think personally greater freedom in being weird, and just really letting it go, and turning into whatever wild animal I need to be in any moment to get my piece of art through me, to let it flow.
But being in a group, the group cohesiveness… that’s what reminds us that it's okay to be human together, and there's a soul-strengthening element to group cohesion. There's safety. If I'm making art alone, I might become unhinged, and that's a risk that I'm willing to take. That's a risk I knowingly step into. I love that. It's great. But in a group, there's accountability, and safety, and like a rootedness that also allows for deeper expression.
The group cohesiveness piece specifically is a fundamental factor in whether group therapy is successful or not for the people who are in it. So to have something like “Art-making matters to the success of people being comfortable,” and maybe not even comfortable, but being safe and connected to each other- and I think that's fascinating, too, that there's like a true welcoming of multiplicity, some would say. I'm trying to think what else. That's what stands out to me about the cohesive part of group work.
It's also just nice. It's nice to just vibe.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: It's nice to vibe with people. And feel other people in a room with you, even if you don't know them, to just feel what it is to be a human in another room with other humans. There's not pressure to live up to what someone else is working on, but there is the felt experience of being an animal together in a room with other wild ones.
Dani: I love that. I resonate with all of that. I feel like making art with other people is such a special and unique experience of coexisting in a creative way. I usually feel inspired by looking around and seeing what other people are making and being like, "Oh, that's so weird. I love that." Or "I would've never expected that from you.”
Tikva: It's wonderful.
Dani: And it's very vulnerable, it feels so human, it feels so raw, and it's so fun.
Tikva: And it's like an opportunity to see what… I love that you just said, "I never would've expected that from you," because we do that, we're like, "Ooh, what kind of art does this person make? What is this person's vibe?" And it just feels like a kind of mind-blowing thing to see what people actually produce and what lives inside of us that we walk around with every day. We all have all of our multiplicity (another time to say that word) of worlds inside of us, and then art is that in our best human attempt to manifest it, in our best attempt to be like, "Ooh, this little weird box lives inside of me. Here, I'll show it to you." It's always surprising.
Dani: Yes. It is such an insight and connection point into other people's inner worlds. And I love having experiences where there's group art-making and maybe some people return again, and then you can do it again, and again. And like the practice of seeing how people evolve their art and what comes through on different days, that's really fun and weird.
Tikva: It's so fun and weird. Oh my gosh. And frustrating sometimes, and wonderful, and that's like the practice piece of it, is to see how people evolve and where we get stuck and how we keep going.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: Totally.
Dani: Ooh, I love this. So you're gonna be leading a session on creativity through hard times. Yes. And I'd love to hear more about creativity through hard times. What and why?
Tikva: It's so needed. The why is that we're having hard times collectively.
Dani: Yes, we are.
Tikva: We're out here having hard times together, and good times and fun times, but, and also challenging ones. And we were talking about this earlier, the ways that we constrict when financial stress happens, when relational stress happens, global environmental stress, and that constriction sometimes is necessary to focus to get one foot in front of the other. But it doesn't happen and then the rest of the world just collapses. There is still a flow and a fluidity somewhere out there, within, all the things. And that, I think, is where attention comes into play and really intentionally turning our attentions to creative making, at least in fits and spurts, at least in moments where we can, enough to remember that there is creativity within and without these tense moments.
And I believe that, creativity is not just an aesthetic practice, but it can be a spiritual practice, a political act, but also as a problem-solving tool. Creative thinking is a problem-solving tool, and Albert Einstein, that dude, we love him. Shout out Albie. I think he's quoted about this a squajillion times over, where he's like, "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Imagination encircles the world." And it's true that that exists alongside all of these collapsing systems and hard moments and challenges, and it's a tool we can lean on, and I think we should.
I truly would love to see more creative thought and conversation that's okay without having an outcome. Creative conversation that's for the sake of exploring or following curiosity or having an outcome, whatever, but just the movement towards more psychological flexibility in relating to each other. As a tool.
And anyway, long story short, this little workshop is just one little tiny moment to try to cultivate that flexible attention. And I think it's important because we just don't have a lot of spaces to do that. A lot of safe spaces and a lot of spaces with materials provided, and spaces where it's okay to have an emotional moment, but, and also you can keep going. All these different aspects of safety are present, so that's a gift. I love it. I'm so excited.
Dani: I'm so excited too. I agree that this is so needed. It is at the heart of what we need most individually and collectively.
Tikva: Yes. Truly. What do you think? You say something 'cause I'm curious about your thoughts around why we need it too. I think it's so fundamental, right?
Dani: Yes. I agree with everything you said about psychological flexibility and the way that creativity helps us solve problems and move forward in a way that we might not otherwise even know is possible.
Tikva: Yes. Things open up, just by virtue of looking at something in a new way. Or taking a step back and going, "Ah. Oh, okay. It's not just this one thing. I can approach this from different angles."
Dani: And I love what you were saying about cultivating our attention, because that's something that we do in creative practice, is put our attention on what we're making with our hands, like our body, the colors, the textures, the shapes the materials, and how that's a different way of being than, for me, when I'm making art, maybe I'm still stressed and anxious or whatever, but I'm also like moving it.
Tikva: Yes, totally. There's the relationship with anxiety or whatever, with whatever you're feeling versus, and it's moving through you, and it's like part of the process rather than just being held onto like a dog leash, like something that's running away from you really fast, and you're like, "Oh, no. How do I catch this?" You can walk with it.
Dani: It feels like a mindfulness practice. Instead of getting caught in the spirals of worry and stress and shame, etc, then it's like I'm actually moving my attention to let it move outward and turn into something else. Not that those are bad things, but that they can have a direction, a transformative direction, as opposed to being stuck in a spiral.
Tikva: They're never fixed. Our experiences aren't fixed, and so to move it allows it space to breathe and be seen. And then you can actually look at what's in front of you, and you might not love it. You might absolutely adore what you've created. Or you might not think twice about it and then walk out the door and suddenly see things in a just slightly different way that changes your mood entirely. I think that's the cultivating of attention is that our intentionality is subtle but so impactful. It shapes our lives. So if we consciously spend time cultivating our attention, then we become aware of that tool that we have in and of itself. And it's a creative tool. That you get some sort of choice over it.
Dani: And what you said about letting your piece help you to see something else. I think that for me, part of what I love about the creative practice is that I can externalize something and then have it reflected back to me in a totally new way that I'm like, "Oh- there's this too or there's that," or "I love this color and now I'm remembering it reminds me of this other thing that's also this color and I love this color,"
Tikva: And those neural connections get bigger and the space of your mind gets bigger. That creates more spaciousness, and memory and connection and points to potentially talk with your neighbor about. "Hey, cerulean blue, what's up?"
I'm looking at this piece that's in front of me right now, with this black background and this weird orange squiggle. I was really not liking it at first. And I had to keep going 'cause I knew that if I just kept going, there would be some sort of moment of change or shift in some sort of direction. And I've started squiggling on it, and it looks like this like 1980s pop modern color blast situation right now. But, and also the part that I did not like about it in the beginning is now this beautiful background to the weird that is happening now. And that's an attentional shift too. That's like creating space to look back on a thing and go, "Oh yeah, it was this once and now it's this."
Which might be a heady or convoluted way of just saying I've just scribbled like a five-year-old for 15 minutes. But it's still something to kinda study, like an externalized way of looking at how our minds move and how our hearts move and I like it.
Dani: Yes. Thank you. I love that. It's making me think of creativity through hard times, about how like in my experience, almost every time I make art there are things about it I don't like. And that resistance and that not liking something, but then continuing anyway and letting it transform. Maybe there's a moment of fun or play, perhaps.
Tikva: Totally.
Dani: That's like us living in hard times.
Tikva: 100%.
Dani: That it's like maybe I don't like this, but like what else, where can I find other things?
Tikva: And how I keep going. It's practice for keeping going, 'cause the not liking thing is real. Even with a piece of art, there's a real emotional response when I don't like a piece of art. There's a real part of me that's like, "Fuck this. I'm done." But it's just art.
Dani: Yes. Yes.
Tikva: It's just like this little moment, and it's good practice. Yes. I like that. For when we're presented with something in the real world that is challenging and we can remember that there are gonna be other ways to look at it ultimately.
Dani: But don't erase the challenge. It's still there.
Tikva: Yes. Yeah, that the challenge exists. And that's part of the, the creativity is igniting curiosity enough to try to look at it in a different way or have some sort of flexibility in moving with it or through it or whatever. I think there's, especially in art, this idea that it's not challenging, that artists just make art and it's super easy and it doesn't take hours of mental experiences. But it's not. Art making is an emotional process, and so is living. It is a direct reflection of how we live and the ways that we caretake ourselves when at least when I'm working on a piece of art, the things that I'm thinking, those are all directly translatable into how I deal with challenges in my own life. And it's not always pretty, and it's also, it's a tool, it's a curiosity point.
My hope is that if as we collectively cultivate attention, that we create flexibility within ourselves and relationally with each other, and can build that muscle together over time. It feels like the antidote to AI. It feels like the antidote to economic collapse. It does not feel like the savior, but it feels like this tool that we can hold onto while things get more and more precarious around us.
And, creative thought is nonlinear, and while we're in this world where we don't know what's gonna happen next often, nonlinear thinking is a gift. That is a resource and a resilience-building skill to practice. And so in that way, creativity is, not just producing a thing, but it's a process we can keep stepping into, and that's why I like it for hard times 'cause there's so many levels that it hits.
And you're in a room with other people making things, which is, like we talked about earlier, a safety net and a delight. Co-regulation. All the good stuff.
Dani: Yes. That's so good. Is there anything else that we didn't get to talk about that is on your mind, sparked from this conversation?
Tikva: I just love talking about this stuff. Thanks for giving me so much room to just rant and ramble. It's so fun. I'm like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I love it. I love it. I love it.
Dani: I love everything you're saying.
Tikva: It's awesome. This space is awesome. Conspire Studio is awesome. I think y'all had a y'all had a series around humaning and creativity, like attuning to the human. And that intersection, I think that's just the main thing that feels real to me, is that creative practice, imagination, silliness in dark moments , these are all fundamental aspects of being a human, and they aren't superficial. It's not a superficial practice. It's... It can help break apart heaviness, and it can also be super he- like creativity can feel heavy. But it's such a bridge. Between our inner world, our outer world, our relationships. I really I'm like, I wanna flip over the table. This is what I believe. Yes. This is what I believe. Everyone, gather around.
Dani: I believe it too.
Tikva: Yeah. It's our humanity. It's just part of what it is to have a body, is to be a creative being. And so I'm excited to consciously use it.
Dani: Yes.
Tikva: Thanks for talking. Thanks for listening.
Dani: Thank you so much. Yeah. This has been amazing and I really appreciate your time and thoughts.
Tikva: Absolutely. Well, I'll see you at the workshop. See you there, everybody.
